Horn Bow and Sundering - Guild Wars Forums

Barinthus · Jan 08, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

From what I understand, Horn Bows have inherent 10% armour penetration.

Suppose I was to add on a Sundering String with 10% armour penetration, will this increase the penetration to 20% or what?

how would this work?

Barinthus · Jan 08, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Also I tried to find the information on bow's accuracy. I looked up http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ies-id1092.php and it didn't tell me.

I recall seeing a chart or something that listed the accuracy of each bow type. Does anybody know where I can find this information?

jimmy_logic · Jan 08, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Yes it will add up the armor piercing component of it. But as said before only when Sundering triggers will it add up. Also from memory Horn Bow types are very accurate as they don't arc so much therefore don't have to travel far, whereas flatbows arc very high there is normally a high risk of it missing or the target dodging it or just a plain stray will pop up. But then with low arcs means the arrow can't get to high places where the elevation is quite high. Weapon switch is your friend.

Barinthus · Jan 08, 2006, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Yes, that's what I'm trying to figure out - I'm thinking of having three bows. One for long-range distance (luring and sniping) - probably go with a longbow or stormbow for this one.

One for close combat - shortbow or half moon bow

One for interputting - recurve, composite, eternal, or dead

I read one thread where someone suggested using horn, ivory, or shadow bows if I want to use barrage since bow refiring rates match barrage recharging rates.

So the arrow arc affects the accuracy? Higher arc translates into poorer accuracy?

Dave83 · Jan 08, 2006, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Close combat you use a short bow type for higher damage per sec, yes.

eternal is longbow type (thought i'd mention that since you have it with the composite types, stormbow is composite) You can also use composite types if you are blinded or suffering accuracy lowering hexes, or the enemy is evading, since they have the best accuracey - this will slightly increase your chance to hit.

On the hornbow thing.. well from the way its worded and what i understood it says inherant 10% armor penetration. I.e. you automatically have 10% armor penetration, you always get the 10% penetraion at 100%. So add a 10/10 and you have +20% armor penetration at 10%.

Yanman.be · Jan 08, 2006, 12:41 PM // 12:41

vamp hornbow is teh best for spiking

Barinthus · Jan 08, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

TheAmaizingDave - did you check out the link in my first post? It shows that Eternal has same stats as a Composite and Storm = Longbow. Is the table still accurate or has it changed?

One retarded question - what exactly is spiking?

Fyre Brand · Jan 08, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAmaizingDave

eternal is longbow type (thought i'd mention that since you have it with the composite types, stormbow is composite) You can also use composite types if you are blinded or suffering accuracy lowering hexes, or the enemy is evading, since they have the best accuracey - this will slightly increase your chance to hit.

On the hornbow thing.. well from the way its worded and what i understood it says inherant 10% armor penetration. I.e. you automatically have 10% armor penetration, you always get the 10% penetraion at 100%. So add a 10/10 and you have +20% armor penetration at 10%.

You have the UW bow skins backwards. The Stormbow is a longbow type and the Eternal bow skin belongs in the composite bow class. Also a composite bow isn't going to affect your accuracy anymore than any other bow. A composite bow is has greater accuracy and is better for interupting moving targets because it has a faster arrow travel time not because it has a higher accuracy rate than any other bow.

As far as sundering goes most people don't like them much. Horn bows work best in very specific builds designed to overcome the bows really slow refire rate and maximize armour penetration. You could add a 10/10 sundering string to a horn bow or you could also add a 5/1 vamp string to it. There are valid arguments for both. Then you would want to use a build centering around judges insight and barrage or quick shot. There is no simple answer to "if i add a certain string to my bow is it going to kick ass?" The short answer is no and yes. No it won't by itself, and YES it will if you build around it.

The better thing to do is play around with skill builds and then build your weapon for that. You will save yourself a lot of money in the long run. It's always about the skills.

Barinthus · Jan 08, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Yes I know. I was just wondering is it possible to have greater armor pentration using sundering string on a horn bow should I pass the sundering string check.

Kamatsu · Jan 09, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

To answer the question about spiking. The search tool is your best friend

Keyword "spiking", forum "Q&A" ->

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=spiking
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=spiking
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=spiking

Search -> http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/search.php?

Barinthus · Jan 09, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Thanks! Appreciate it!

Dave83 · Jan 09, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Fyre I believe im correct.

If you fire a longbow (from max range) at a stationary target e.g. a dune burrower, then switch to eternal you will notice you do not run up to your target any further. Longbow has greatest range of all bows, eternal is longbow type.

Now fire at a target with a longbow, then switch to a stormbow. You will run closer. This confirms that storm is not a longbow type.

Switch the camera to a side view so you can see the flight of your arrows clearly. Use a known hornbow e.g. Ivory - notice there is an arc in the flight path of the arrow. Switch to A composite - Notice how the arrow has a quicker flight and has a straight flight. Switch to a storm bow, the storm bow fire's straight like a composite. This confirms the stormbow is not a hornbow and implies it is a composite bow.

Use a known composite bow and again fire at a stationary target like you have been, switch to a known shortbow and you run up closer to your target. Do the same with the Stormbow in place of the composite and you have the same result. This confirms the stormbow is not a shortbow type. So the storm bow must be a composite type bow.

Barinthus · Jan 09, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Well this is your chance to prove that everybody else are wrong or perhaps ANet changed Storm Bow properties.

Or perhaps Storm Bow are like Ascalon Bows - they can vary?

I recommend you to consider making screenies of your experiments and post them here. Then we can change that missile table.

I recently acquired an Ascalon Bow (longbow version) and I already have a Storm Bow so I'll experiment on this as well.

Barinthus · Jan 10, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Ok I took the liberty of experimenting with my newly acquired ascalon bows and my trusty old storm 'stormy' bow.

Here are my results...

Storm Bow

Longbow

Recurve Bow (Composite family)

Horn Bow

Barinthus · Jan 10, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Since I couldn't post more than 4 images in a post...

Shortbow

My conclusion? Storm Bow has the same range as the standard longbow.

And oh forgive me for not covering up my skills or whatever. I know it's like running thru a soccer game naked.

Lord Iowerth · Jan 10, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Good work, Barinthus.

Also one thing to note for future testing: being on higher-level ground than your opponent increases your range ever so sleightly, and being lower decreases your range ... another good ranger-tip

Fyre Brand · Jan 10, 2006, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quite some months ago I read 2 or 3 good threads on armour penetration. This is what the OP's question really comes down to. How does AP work? I know he is specifically asking about the horn bow with it's generally accepted inherent 10% AP and a sundering string 10/10, but the question is answered with how AP works. I could only find one of the threads I was looking for after extensive use of the beloved search feature.

Here is a link to the thread: Judge's Insight Thread.

Specifically look at post #6 where mr_boo quotes son of rah. I am going to quote posts 6 and 7 here for ease of reading.

Post 6:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_boo

I found this post by SonOfRah whom I trust as a most reliable source of GW. Here's the post:

SonOfRah
"""
Armor Penetration

Armor penetration is an important aspect when you are figuring out your target's EAL. Obviously, the less armor they have, the more damage they receive.

Armor penetration can be gained via 3 methods.
1) Strength attribute
2) Skills
3) Weapons

Strength grants 1% base armor penetration per attribute level. Skills can either grant a base AP% (i.e.: penetrating attack) or can grant a bonus AP% (i.e.: judge's insight). Weapons can grant a bonus AP% through the sundering prefix (weapon upgrade) or can have an inbuilt AP bonus on the weapon itself (i.e.: Horn bows have a 10% base armor penetration value).

The difference between a base armor penetration and a bonus armor penetration is shown by the way they stack, as well as the way the skill description is written.

If multiple base armor penetration is in effect (e.g.: strength attribute and penetrating blow) then the highest armor penetration value is taken. In the above case, the 20% base armor penetration from penetrating attack is used instead of the base penetration from the strength attribute (because penetrating attack's is higher than strength's).

Then, if any bonus armor penetration is in effect, it gets added to the base penetration.

The highest possible armor penetration is 50% (sundering +10%, penetrating blow/attack 20% base, judge's insight +20%).

Base armor penetration is shown in the game by a basic number. E.g. this spell has 25% armor penetration, or: This attack has 20% armor penetration.
Bonus armor penetration is shown in the game by the addition symbol. E.g. +20% armor penetration.

Spells do not gain any armor penetration that are granted from weapon modifiers, attributes or other skills unless it specifically states on the skill that it does.

e.g.: Judge's Insight does not grant 20% armor penetration to spells, nor does Strength or item modifiers. However, if a skill states "your next spell has +10% armor penetration" then it would.

Unfortunately, no skill grants another spell armor penetration. Only some specific skills (such as Air damage spells) have armor penetration.
"""

The question I couldn't find an answer to to directly answer the OP's question is: Is the sundering bow string base AP? If it is (and I do think it is) then according to this discussion the two don't stack. I haven't tested this so obviously it could work just fine and they might stack.

I do have a bow with a 10/10 string on it and also a bow with a 5/1 vamp string. I like the 10/10 string because it's general use and doesn't have the degen a vamp string has. But I think the bow with the vamp string does better damage overall. Both bows are 15 - 28 base damage. The bow with the sundering string is +14% damage with health greater than 50%. The bow with the vamp string on it is +15% damage always with a -10 AR penalty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_boo

My final note:
Many of the experts here consider a perfect Sundering Bowstring +10% AP at 10% chance as crap. The reason for this is that a perfect Vampiric Bowstring (steal 5 Health at the cost of 1 Life Pip) is far more effective than the Sundering Bowstring in terms of damage.

I really find this to be true overall. So Barinthus sorry not to be able to answer your question directly, but I think for spike damage a 5/1 vamp is a better string for the specific purpose of maximizing spike damage than the 10/10 sundering string. Also the damage on the 5/1 string is more consistant. The sundering string is gonig to be more effective on high armour targets and less effective on low armour targets. I have tested AP with my warrior on targets with different armour ratings and have found this to be true.

Sereng Amaranth · Jan 10, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

10% = 10%
10% + 10% = 21%

100 dmg + 10% = 110 dmg
110 dmg + 10% = 121 dmg

Barinthus · Jan 10, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Thanks, Lord. Yeah I knew that but figured since it's the same mob in same place, I thought it would be ok.

Fyre - good read and thanks! That's what I had in mind - sundering hornbow for high armor targets such as enchanteds and javas.

Curious - what kind of bow you have, the one with vampiric on? I'd imagine something like shortbow?

Savio · Jan 10, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ies-id1092.php

Stormbow is Longbow; Eternal is Composite.

Jan 08, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40	#1
Barinthus Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Guild: (TRUE) Profession: R/Me	Horn Bow and Sundering From what I understand, Horn Bows have inherent 10% armour penetration. Suppose I was to add on a Sundering String with 10% armour penetration, will this increase the penetration to 20% or what? how would this work?

Jan 10, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36	#20
Savio Teenager with attitude Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ies-id1092.php Stormbow is Longbow; Eternal is Composite. __________________ People are stupid.

Jan 08, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54	#2
Barinthus Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Guild: (TRUE) Profession: R/Me	Also I tried to find the information on bow's accuracy. I looked up http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ies-id1092.php and it didn't tell me. I recall seeing a chart or something that listed the accuracy of each bow type. Does anybody know where I can find this information?

Jan 08, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15	#3
jimmy_logic Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Sep 2005 Profession: R/	Yes it will add up the armor piercing component of it. But as said before only when Sundering triggers will it add up. Also from memory Horn Bow types are very accurate as they don't arc so much therefore don't have to travel far, whereas flatbows arc very high there is normally a high risk of it missing or the target dodging it or just a plain stray will pop up. But then with low arcs means the arrow can't get to high places where the elevation is quite high. Weapon switch is your friend.

Jan 08, 2006, 08:20 AM // 08:20	#4
Barinthus Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Guild: (TRUE) Profession: R/Me	Yes, that's what I'm trying to figure out - I'm thinking of having three bows. One for long-range distance (luring and sniping) - probably go with a longbow or stormbow for this one. One for close combat - shortbow or half moon bow One for interputting - recurve, composite, eternal, or dead I read one thread where someone suggested using horn, ivory, or shadow bows if I want to use barrage since bow refiring rates match barrage recharging rates. So the arrow arc affects the accuracy? Higher arc translates into poorer accuracy?

Jan 08, 2006, 12:36 PM // 12:36	#5
Dave83 Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: England Guild: SeS Profession: Me/Mo	Close combat you use a short bow type for higher damage per sec, yes. eternal is longbow type (thought i'd mention that since you have it with the composite types, stormbow is composite) You can also use composite types if you are blinded or suffering accuracy lowering hexes, or the enemy is evading, since they have the best accuracey - this will slightly increase your chance to hit. On the hornbow thing.. well from the way its worded and what i understood it says inherant 10% armor penetration. I.e. you automatically have 10% armor penetration, you always get the 10% penetraion at 100%. So add a 10/10 and you have +20% armor penetration at 10%.

Jan 08, 2006, 12:41 PM // 12:41	#6
Yanman.be Banned Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Belgium Guild: [ROSE] Profession: A/	vamp hornbow is teh best for spiking

Jan 08, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00	#7
Barinthus Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Guild: (TRUE) Profession: R/Me	TheAmaizingDave - did you check out the link in my first post? It shows that Eternal has same stats as a Composite and Storm = Longbow. Is the table still accurate or has it changed? One retarded question - what exactly is spiking?

Jan 08, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18	#9
Barinthus Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Guild: (TRUE) Profession: R/Me	Yes I know. I was just wondering is it possible to have greater armor pentration using sundering string on a horn bow should I pass the sundering string check.

Jan 09, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17	#10
Kamatsu Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Location: Australia	To answer the question about spiking. The search tool is your best friend Keyword "spiking", forum "Q&A" -> http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=spiking http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=spiking http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=spiking Search -> http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/search.php?

Jan 09, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42	#11
Barinthus Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Guild: (TRUE) Profession: R/Me	Thanks! Appreciate it!

Jan 09, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57	#12
Dave83 Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: England Guild: SeS Profession: Me/Mo	Fyre I believe im correct. If you fire a longbow (from max range) at a stationary target e.g. a dune burrower, then switch to eternal you will notice you do not run up to your target any further. Longbow has greatest range of all bows, eternal is longbow type. Now fire at a target with a longbow, then switch to a stormbow. You will run closer. This confirms that storm is not a longbow type. Switch the camera to a side view so you can see the flight of your arrows clearly. Use a known hornbow e.g. Ivory - notice there is an arc in the flight path of the arrow. Switch to A composite - Notice how the arrow has a quicker flight and has a straight flight. Switch to a storm bow, the storm bow fire's straight like a composite. This confirms the stormbow is not a hornbow and implies it is a composite bow. Use a known composite bow and again fire at a stationary target like you have been, switch to a known shortbow and you run up closer to your target. Do the same with the Stormbow in place of the composite and you have the same result. This confirms the stormbow is not a shortbow type. So the storm bow must be a composite type bow.

Jan 09, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38	#13
Barinthus Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Guild: (TRUE) Profession: R/Me	Well this is your chance to prove that everybody else are wrong or perhaps ANet changed Storm Bow properties. Or perhaps Storm Bow are like Ascalon Bows - they can vary? I recommend you to consider making screenies of your experiments and post them here. Then we can change that missile table. I recently acquired an Ascalon Bow (longbow version) and I already have a Storm Bow so I'll experiment on this as well.

Jan 10, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03	#14
Barinthus Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Guild: (TRUE) Profession: R/Me	Ok I took the liberty of experimenting with my newly acquired ascalon bows and my trusty old storm 'stormy' bow. Here are my results... Storm Bow Longbow Recurve Bow (Composite family) Horn Bow

Jan 10, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59	#16
Lord Iowerth Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA (#guildwarsguru FTW!) Guild: Biscuit Of Dewm [MEEP] Profession: R/Mo	Good work, Barinthus. Also one thing to note for future testing: being on higher-level ground than your opponent increases your range ever so sleightly, and being lower decreases your range ... another good ranger-tip

Jan 10, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28	#18
Sereng Amaranth Desert Nomad Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: The Amazon Basin [AB]	10% = 10% 10% + 10% = 21% 100 dmg + 10% = 110 dmg 110 dmg + 10% = 121 dmg

Jan 10, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41	#19
Barinthus Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Guild: (TRUE) Profession: R/Me	Thanks, Lord. Yeah I knew that but figured since it's the same mob in same place, I thought it would be ok. Fyre - good read and thanks! That's what I had in mind - sundering hornbow for high armor targets such as enchanteds and javas. Curious - what kind of bow you have, the one with vampiric on? I'd imagine something like shortbow?